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OT: In case you missed it, interesting read on whether Feds are overreaching on fraud charges

Eagle5

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Before at least certain parts of these federal charges run their course, it's certainly possible that good defense attorneys will successfully challenge that the FBI / DOJ are trying to criminally prosecute what is plainly no more than an NCAA violation.

And I'm by NO means excusing Person's contemptible actions. I AM, however, not a damn bit happy that our tax dollars - and it'll be in the millions you'd guess - are going to bring cases like this.

E5

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From The Wall Street Journal last night ...

Probe Into NCAA Basketball Relies on Unusual Legal Theories
3hr
BN-VH887_NCAALE_SOC_20170927172813.jpg


The government’s sprawling investigation into bribery in top-tier college basketball programs has prompted some in the sports and legal communities to question whether the alleged activity violates federal law.

By Nicole Hong

The government’s sprawling investigation into bribery in top-tier college basketball programs has prompted some in the sports and legal communities to question whether the alleged activity violates federal law.

Federal prosecutors on Tuesday unsealed charges against 10 defendants, including four assistant college-basketball coaches.

In one alleged scheme, prosecutors argue, the coaches took cash bribes from financial advisers, business managers and others, and facilitated bribes directly to student-athletes. In exchange, the coaches agreed to pressure student-athletes under their control to retain the services of these advisers once the athletes entered the National Basketball Association.

In a second and related scheme, a top Adidas AG executive allegedly worked in connection with the advisers in the first scheme to funnel bribes to high-school players and their families to induce them to attend universities sponsored by Adidas, and to choose Adidas as their sponsor when they turned pro.

The investigation is unusual because while the alleged misconduct violates National Collegiate Athletic Association rules, some legal experts say it may not have necessarily broken federal law.

NCAA bylaws state that any financial assistance to student-athletes, other than from their legal guardians or from the university, is prohibited without express authorization from the NCAA. Student athletes are also prohibited from accepting benefits, including money, from outside sources like financial advisers. A student-athlete is ineligible to participate in Division I sports if he or she violates these rules.

Gabe Feldman, a sports law professor at Tulane University Law School, said it was fair to question whether prosecutors were overreaching in trying “to turn what might be an NCAA violation into a criminal violation.”

“The conduct itself doesn’t necessarily appear to violate any laws, standing on their own,” he said. “But it’s the combination of factors that appear to have convinced the government to bring this case.”

Prosecutors in the criminal complaints are primarily alleging violations of federal bribery and fraud laws. The charges are likely to face challenges in court, legal experts say.

All four coaches were charged with honest-services fraud conspiracy. The government accuses the coaches of depriving the universities of their “honest services” as university employees by soliciting and receiving bribes.

Honest-services fraud is a crime under the federal wire-fraud statute, a broad law that is widely used by prosecutors to charge virtually any type of fraud that involves an email or phone call. Every defendant in this case was also charged with wire-fraud conspiracy.

The law governing honest-services fraud is both controversial and in flux, lawyers said. The definition of what it means to deprive an employer of honest services is vague, and a 2010 Supreme Court ruling narrowed the definition of honest-services fraud to cover only certain types of bribery and kickback schemes. The statute has often been used to charge corrupt politicians.

“I’m not aware of any case where federal prosecutors have used honest-services fraud to say the programs that were allegedly defrauded were college sports organizations,” said Daniel Silver, a former federal prosecutor in Brooklyn who is now a partner at Clifford Chance LLP.

The government says the universities were the victims of the alleged schemes. Because the universities were unaware of the alleged bribes, they gave financial aid to student athletes who were actually in violation of NCAA rules and therefore ineligible for scholarships. This, in turn, defrauded the universities because it hurt their “decision-making about the distribution of its limited athletic scholarships,” the criminal complaint said.

But the government may have a hard time showing how schools like Auburn University or University of Louisville suffered losses as a result of the scheme, some lawyers said.

“If Louisville’s a victim, what did they lose out on?” asked Bradley Henry, a criminal defense attorney in New York.

Lawyers said the defense may also bring challenges to the bribery charges. Federal law bans the bribery of organizations that receive money from the federal government. In their criminal complaints, prosecutors said the public universities receive federal funding, which means bribery of the coaches, who are employees of the university, is also prohibited. The defense, however, could argue that coaches shouldn’t be treated like federal government employees, according to one defense lawyer.

As well, legal experts say that the government, to prove bribery, may have to show a quid pro quo occurred between the payers of the bribe and the coaches. In the wake of recent shifts in bribery and public-corruption law, defense lawyers could argue that coaches steering players toward certain money managers may not be enough of an official action on the coaches’ part to warrant federal bribery charges.
 
The whole thing stinks. Amazing how bammer never gets popped during the days if the "packet" and TTown menswear but the Feds choose to get involved in this bs. Not to mention the entrapment like methods that were used here.
 
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Before at least certain parts of these federal charges run their course, it's certainly possible that good defense attorneys will successfully challenge that the FBI / DOJ are trying to criminally prosecute what is plainly no more than an NCAA violation.

And I'm by NO means excusing Person's contemptible actions. I AM, however, not a damn bit happy that our tax dollars - and it'll be in the millions you'd guess - are going to bring cases like this.

E5

-----

From The Wall Street Journal last night ...

Probe Into NCAA Basketball Relies on Unusual Legal Theories
3hr
BN-VH887_NCAALE_SOC_20170927172813.jpg


The government’s sprawling investigation into bribery in top-tier college basketball programs has prompted some in the sports and legal communities to question whether the alleged activity violates federal law.

By Nicole Hong

The government’s sprawling investigation into bribery in top-tier college basketball programs has prompted some in the sports and legal communities to question whether the alleged activity violates federal law.

Federal prosecutors on Tuesday unsealed charges against 10 defendants, including four assistant college-basketball coaches.

In one alleged scheme, prosecutors argue, the coaches took cash bribes from financial advisers, business managers and others, and facilitated bribes directly to student-athletes. In exchange, the coaches agreed to pressure student-athletes under their control to retain the services of these advisers once the athletes entered the National Basketball Association.

In a second and related scheme, a top Adidas AG executive allegedly worked in connection with the advisers in the first scheme to funnel bribes to high-school players and their families to induce them to attend universities sponsored by Adidas, and to choose Adidas as their sponsor when they turned pro.

The investigation is unusual because while the alleged misconduct violates National Collegiate Athletic Association rules, some legal experts say it may not have necessarily broken federal law.

NCAA bylaws state that any financial assistance to student-athletes, other than from their legal guardians or from the university, is prohibited without express authorization from the NCAA. Student athletes are also prohibited from accepting benefits, including money, from outside sources like financial advisers. A student-athlete is ineligible to participate in Division I sports if he or she violates these rules.

Gabe Feldman, a sports law professor at Tulane University Law School, said it was fair to question whether prosecutors were overreaching in trying “to turn what might be an NCAA violation into a criminal violation.”

“The conduct itself doesn’t necessarily appear to violate any laws, standing on their own,” he said. “But it’s the combination of factors that appear to have convinced the government to bring this case.”

Prosecutors in the criminal complaints are primarily alleging violations of federal bribery and fraud laws. The charges are likely to face challenges in court, legal experts say.

All four coaches were charged with honest-services fraud conspiracy. The government accuses the coaches of depriving the universities of their “honest services” as university employees by soliciting and receiving bribes.

Honest-services fraud is a crime under the federal wire-fraud statute, a broad law that is widely used by prosecutors to charge virtually any type of fraud that involves an email or phone call. Every defendant in this case was also charged with wire-fraud conspiracy.

The law governing honest-services fraud is both controversial and in flux, lawyers said. The definition of what it means to deprive an employer of honest services is vague, and a 2010 Supreme Court ruling narrowed the definition of honest-services fraud to cover only certain types of bribery and kickback schemes. The statute has often been used to charge corrupt politicians.

“I’m not aware of any case where federal prosecutors have used honest-services fraud to say the programs that were allegedly defrauded were college sports organizations,” said Daniel Silver, a former federal prosecutor in Brooklyn who is now a partner at Clifford Chance LLP.

The government says the universities were the victims of the alleged schemes. Because the universities were unaware of the alleged bribes, they gave financial aid to student athletes who were actually in violation of NCAA rules and therefore ineligible for scholarships. This, in turn, defrauded the universities because it hurt their “decision-making about the distribution of its limited athletic scholarships,” the criminal complaint said.

But the government may have a hard time showing how schools like Auburn University or University of Louisville suffered losses as a result of the scheme, some lawyers said.

“If Louisville’s a victim, what did they lose out on?” asked Bradley Henry, a criminal defense attorney in New York.

Lawyers said the defense may also bring challenges to the bribery charges. Federal law bans the bribery of organizations that receive money from the federal government. In their criminal complaints, prosecutors said the public universities receive federal funding, which means bribery of the coaches, who are employees of the university, is also prohibited. The defense, however, could argue that coaches shouldn’t be treated like federal government employees, according to one defense lawyer.

As well, legal experts say that the government, to prove bribery, may have to show a quid pro quo occurred between the payers of the bribe and the coaches. In the wake of recent shifts in bribery and public-corruption law, defense lawyers could argue that coaches steering players toward certain money managers may not be enough of an official action on the coaches’ part to warrant federal bribery charges.

Wouldn't Chuck still habe committed wire fraud after lying about the relationship between he, Barkley, and the financial advisor and having funds wired to him for his services?

The whole thing stinks. Amazing how bammer never gets popped during the days if the "packet" and TTown menswear but the Feds choose to get involved in this bs. Not to mention the entrapment like methods that were used here.

I'm probably not as up to speed on this case as I should be but what were the "entrapment like methods that were used here"?
 
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Am I the only one who would be loving this were Auburn not involved?

I agree on the questionable use of tax dollars. Other than that, I would love for the NCAA to burn to the ground and the entire system be overhauled.

College sports are huge business and have veered so far from their original intent that I would argue they should be separate from the "university" entirely. No more student athlete bs, no more lip service. They should be for profit enterprises that are affiliated and associated with schools who choose to participate and have the infrastructure to host the games. Turn football and basketball into legitimate minor leagues - offer education to the participants, allow them to work towards traditional degrees if they choose, but also offer work/career based skills training in their chosen sport. Put the onus of governing the minor leagues on their respective parent professional leagues and huge corporate sponsors. All of the traditional other sports and Title IX teams can still be funded with the profit from the basketball and football teams, same as it is now.

It will never happen - at least no time soon - but I hope this gets ugly enough that a new system is born out of this mess. It sucks Auburn is involved - but college sports are dead to me anyway. This has a chance to pique my interest.
 
Wouldn't Chuck still habe committed wire fraud after lying about the relationship between he, Barkley, and the financial advisor and having funds wired to him for his services?



I'm probably not as up to speed on this case as I should be but what were the "entrapment like methods that were used here"?

They get a desperate man and tell him get us more folks and we can reduce your sentence etc. So he goes to his friend Chuck and others and creates a fictional scenario and company etc to get somebody else to do a misdeed so he can get a lesser punishment. From how I see it, Chuck didn't go to him, he went to Chuck. They didn't catch Chuck in a real life crime, but manufactured a crime just to pop people. I find this kind of law enforcement slightly dishonest.
 
Am I the only one who would be loving this were Auburn not involved?

I agree on the questionable use of tax dollars. Other than that, I would love for the NCAA to burn to the ground and the entire system be overhauled.

College sports are huge business and have veered so far from their original intent that I would argue they should be separate from the "university" entirely. No more student athlete bs, no more lip service. They should be for profit enterprises that are affiliated and associated with schools who choose to participate and have the infrastructure to host the games. Turn football and basketball into legitimate minor leagues - offer education to the participants, allow them to work towards traditional degrees if they choose, but also offer work/career based skills training in their chosen sport. Put the onus of governing the minor leagues on their respective parent professional leagues and huge corporate sponsors. All of the traditional other sports and Title IX teams can still be funded with the profit from the basketball and football teams, same as it is now.

It will never happen - at least no time soon - but I hope this gets ugly enough that a new system is born out of this mess. It sucks Auburn is involved - but college sports are dead to me anyway. This has a chance to pique my interest.
I would be now that bama and Collin Sexton are involved.
 
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They get a desperate man and tell him get us more folks and we can reduce your sentence etc. So he goes to his friend Chuck and others and creates a fictional scenario and company etc to get somebody else to do a misdeed so he can get a lesser punishment. From how I see it, Chuck didn't go to him, he went to Chuck. They didn't catch Chuck in a real life crime, but manufactured a crime just to pop people. I find this kind of law enforcement slightly dishonest.
I guess. Chuck seems like a real scumbag so I can't find myself putting a lot of effort into defending him. If he were just paying players I'd have no problem with his actions but pushing players towards a known financial cheat for what equates to chump change is the act of a real POS.
 
I guess. Chuck seems like a real scumbag so I can't find myself putting a lot of effort into defending him. If he were just paying players I'd have no problem with his actions but pushing players towards a known financial cheat for what equates to chump change is the act of a real POS.

He's pushing them to a guy who is going to siphon their money off them and put their fortunes at risk consistently. This is who pro athletes end up broke while we all scratch our heads. Hell Chuck has money problems after earning millions, you'd think he would be sympathetic to these issues and to participating in screwing kids and their families out of their fortunes.

Scumbag of the highest order.
 
Am I the only one who would be loving this were Auburn not involved?

I agree on the questionable use of tax dollars. Other than that, I would love for the NCAA to burn to the ground and the entire system be overhauled.

College sports are huge business and have veered so far from their original intent that I would argue they should be separate from the "university" entirely. No more student athlete bs, no more lip service. They should be for profit enterprises that are affiliated and associated with schools who choose to participate and have the infrastructure to host the games. Turn football and basketball into legitimate minor leagues - offer education to the participants, allow them to work towards traditional degrees if they choose, but also offer work/career based skills training in their chosen sport. Put the onus of governing the minor leagues on their respective parent professional leagues and huge corporate sponsors. All of the traditional other sports and Title IX teams can still be funded with the profit from the basketball and football teams, same as it is now.

It will never happen - at least no time soon - but I hope this gets ugly enough that a new system is born out of this mess. It sucks Auburn is involved - but college sports are dead to me anyway. This has a chance to pique my interest.

Every time I've stepped back and looked at the college sports model I am stunned that we created this and that it's lasted this long. There is nothing else like it in the world as far as I can tell. Everywhere else kids at 18 that are good enough move into or have long been in professional environments getting paid for their play. Part of this starts with us needing "local" teams and for much of the nation there is no pro sports team within an hour drive. So instead of us having a 2nd division team in your most popular sport like you'd have almost everywhere else in the world, we have high schools or colleges. Those lower level leagues (think English soccer's divisions all the way down to what are essentially pub based squads) are what a natural setup would look like in a free market. We've somehow bastardized our system by tying it to higher education. That may have worked for decade upon decade, but once this became a billion dollar industry it was bound to be a mess.

It really wouldn't be that insane to see college sports disappear and proper "minor league" like teams take their place. It's actually the most logical fix. The problem is that those systems would require some risk to the professional franchises (they'd either risk $ in establishing it, risk market share to competing with it or at the most extreme risk promotion/relegation style setup where one day the New York Yankees were playing AA ball because they sucked for too long). And since they have all the power and $$ they have no incentive to create or even allow such a system to be installed.
 
Every time I've stepped back and looked at the college sports model I am stunned that we created this and that it's lasted this long. There is nothing else like it in the world as far as I can tell. Everywhere else kids at 18 that are good enough move into or have long been in professional environments getting paid for their play. Part of this starts with us needing "local" teams and for much of the nation there is no pro sports team within an hour drive. So instead of us having a 2nd division team in your most popular sport like you'd have almost everywhere else in the world, we have high schools or colleges. Those lower level leagues (think English soccer's divisions all the way down to what are essentially pub based squads) are what a natural setup would look like in a free market. We've somehow bastardized our system by tying it to higher education. That may have worked for decade upon decade, but once this became a billion dollar industry it was bound to be a mess.

It really wouldn't be that insane to see college sports disappear and proper "minor league" like teams take their place. It's actually the most logical fix. The problem is that those systems would require some risk to the professional franchises (they'd either risk $ in establishing it, risk market share to competing with it or at the most extreme risk promotion/relegation style setup where one day the New York Yankees were playing AA ball because they sucked for too long). And since they have all the power and $$ they have no incentive to create or even allow such a system to be installed.
The Universities make tons of money from Football and Bball, and the NFL and NBA get free developmental leagues too. I know I'm stating the obvious, but there's zero incentive for anyone to change the current set up. It'd take so much investment to create a minor league football league, I doubt it ever happens.

College basketball could legitimately die though. AAU is already in place. I'm sure people would invest in it to make it bigger and one of its games this year was one of the most watched things on Periscope or something. It's just waiting for someone to organize it better and for someone to purchase the broadcast rights.
 
They get a desperate man and tell him get us more folks and we can reduce your sentence etc. So he goes to his friend Chuck and others and creates a fictional scenario and company etc to get somebody else to do a misdeed so he can get a lesser punishment. From how I see it, Chuck didn't go to him, he went to Chuck. They didn't catch Chuck in a real life crime, but manufactured a crime just to pop people. I find this kind of law enforcement slightly dishonest.
This has been my take on the entire situation. Especially the fictional part. But whatever "F*** CHUCK" would make a good bumper sticker.
 
The Universities make tons of money from Football and Bball, and the NFL and NBA get free developmental leagues too. I know I'm stating the obvious, but there's zero incentive for anyone to change the current set up. It'd take so much investment to create a minor league football league, I doubt it ever happens.

College basketball could legitimately die though. AAU is already in place. I'm sure people would invest in it to make it bigger and one of its games this year was one of the most watched things on Periscope or something. It's just waiting for someone to organize it better and for someone to purchase the broadcast rights.

Football seems the most unlikely to change IMO. It's got other hurdles in the coming decades, but I don't see setting up some kind of minor league type system.

Hoops could get there rather easily by comparison. AAU is in place but so is the D-League. You combine/work with both and you pretty quickly could have a blend of baseball's minor league setup with European Soccer Club elements of "youth teams" and development. The franchises already have some ties to D-league teams. It would be easy to implement AAU under that umbrella. The toughest part would be figuring out how to make the teams as "local" as possible. You need nationwide appeal which means you need teams in states with no NBA franchise keeping fans in the loop. Birmingham would need to have a franchise that eventually feeds into the ATL Hawks organization for instance. But the teams would need to be more than what the Barons are IMO, it would need to have some decent TV contracts to get exposure and gain a following. Kinda like what you see with "The Championship" division in England where those teams are still regularly on national tv and pack smaller stadiums and generate a real following.
 
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a lot of good points being made... I question whether many people even care about what we’re discussing, or (more than likely) they don’t care and just want to watch games and be able to shake their little fan dicks at their friends and neighbors and co-workers - so as long as that aspect remains they would never be willing to give up the current system

there’s just no motivation for anyone to actually make changes... even though anyone who takes a step back and looks at what is really happening and thinks about it for more than a few minutes can agree that the whole system is ludicrous
 
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a lot of good points being made... I question whether many people even care about what we’re discussing, or (more than likely) they don’t care and just want to watch games and be able to shake their little fan dicks at their friends and neighbors and co-workers - so as long as that aspect remains they would never be willing to give up the current system

there’s just no motivation for anyone to actually make changes... even though anyone who takes a step back and looks at what is really happening and thinks about it for more than a few minutes can agree that the whole system is ludicrous

I care but have little faith in good triumphing over greed or what that would even look like.
 
a lot of good points being made... I question whether many people even care about what we’re discussing, or (more than likely) they don’t care and just want to watch games and be able to shake their little fan dicks at their friends and neighbors and co-workers - so as long as that aspect remains they would never be willing to give up the current system

there’s just no motivation for anyone to actually make changes... even though anyone who takes a step back and looks at what is really happening and thinks about it for more than a few minutes can agree that the whole system is ludicrous

Out.

I will say this - it wouldn't bother me if a minor league system was created and kids could go straight to it from high school (for any sport). I am against changing the college model to a free-market model. I think it's ok that student athletes are only "paid" with free college. I teach tons of kids who would kill for their college to be paid for. The system as is also allows for sports that would not be able to survive on their own. Again, I think that's ok because these are teams tied to a university not teams created to gain profits. Even if minor league football was where the top talent ended up, I would still probably only watch Auburn boogball. The attachment is emotional not about watching the most talented players or I would be an NFL fan.
 
Out.

I will say this - it wouldn't bother me if a minor league system was created and kids could go straight to it from high school (for any sport). I am against changing the college model to a free-market model. I think it's ok that student athletes are only "paid" with free college. I teach tons of kids who would kill for their college to be paid for. The system as is also allows for sports that would not be able to survive on their own. Again, I think that's ok because these are teams tied to a university not teams created to gain profits. Even if minor league football was where the top talent ended up, I would still probably only watch Auburn boogball. The attachment is emotional not about watching the most talented players or I would be an NFL fan.

I think I would be ok with a farm system for those who know they are going the NBA route and return CBB to real students. It would be a inferior product but would allow more kids to get to college. Put in their paper work that they can not leave until after their junior year unless they want to pay back the scholly money. If they transfer they must continue working on a degree until after their junior year. Dunno if any of this is even possible but I may be more interested if their was more parity between college leagues.
 
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Out.

I will say this - it wouldn't bother me if a minor league system was created and kids could go straight to it from high school (for any sport). I am against changing the college model to a free-market model. I think it's ok that student athletes are only "paid" with free college. I teach tons of kids who would kill for their college to be paid for. The system as is also allows for sports that would not be able to survive on their own. Again, I think that's ok because these are teams tied to a university not teams created to gain profits. Even if minor league football was where the top talent ended up, I would still probably only watch Auburn boogball. The attachment is emotional not about watching the most talented players or I would be an NFL fan.
I'd be good with this. I'm just finding myself objecting to essentially making these kids go to college or go play overseas if they don't want to participate in the college system.

Of course one of the big culprits here are the pro leagues. They could help get these minor leagues started but they won't because the current system gives them what they want for free. Greedy bastages.
 
I'd be good with this. I'm just finding myself objecting to essentially making these kids go to college or go play overseas if they don't want to participate in the college system.

Of course one of the big culprits here are the pro leagues. They could help get these minor leagues started but they won't because the current system gives them what they want for free. Greedy bastages.

I think this is the key. People, especially in the media, want to blame colleges but the pro leagues are the real culprits.
 
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