***** Official Game of Thrones Discussion Thread *****
- Thread starter MomentInTheSun
- Start date
How many times did they show a main character completely surrounded by wights only to cut to a new scene, then when they cut back to that character there's only a handful of wights around them.
no. there were two dragons in the trailer.
The dragons peaced out though at a critical time.
I could have handled one of those, but they kept doing it and it got goofy. I'm not one of those weird "I want to see a bunch of main characters die" people....this show has already provided enough shocking deaths to "good guys" that it doesn't need to add anymore just to make it work. But you can't put them in certain death positions and just act like it's normal that they get out 20 consecutive times without any real explanation. At least Jon gets bailed out by things that make sense. I mean Brienne was overrun by 30 dead soldiers last night at least twice. How's that work?
How the hell did Sam live? He was just laying on the ground. The Dothraki get smoked but he comes out alive?
He probably found a pile of dead wights and hid under them.
Maybe he was under a dumpster the whole time.
I swear grey worm died like 3 times
Finally watched, and it sucked. Too anticlimatic to even waste more words describing.
I liked it and not hating on it like most but can understand the criticisms. I think they were so focused on how they were going to make this episode that the logistics of the story of how the battle plays out kinda got lost in the process. Was a little choppy.
That had to be one of the worst battle plans ever conceived. You are facing a vastly numerically superior force which has no ability to attack you from long distance aside from 1 dragon. You possess a formidable fortress and have the time and manpower to augment it with large ditches and obstacles. Your most formidable offensive weapons are a massive force of light cavalry that numbers 50-100k (estimates I've seen online) and another force of heavy cavalry that won your last major battle for you. You also have the best infantry force in the world on a per man basis.
So first you send your massive light cavalry force on a suicide charge (without the weapons you have been making that are effective against the enemy) and they are wiped out 90 seconds. Then you have your other cavalry force fight dismounted next your your huge infantry force. They both fight in front of the large ditch you have built and are forced to take a headlong charge by countless zombies. Then, once you are forced back inside your formidable ditch which succeeds in stopping the zombies, you don't pour arrows or other missiles into them. You don't even have a plan to have your remaining forces to mount the castle walls to defend them once they have retreated inside the castle.
I liked the episode because it was awesomely produce, but it would have been so much better had Tyrion developed the battle plan. Rather than just one massive trench, they could have added a few smaller trenches in front of it. The massive trench could have been 50 or so yards in front of Winterfell to give the unsullied room to form their ranks. Place them behind the burning trench and possibly even leave small lanes for the dead to attack through to funnel them into killing zones where the unsullied and archers (where were the masses of archers firing dragon glass arrows?) could have cut them down without them being able to overwhelm them. Meanwhile, Jon and Danny could have been raking the field with dragon fire. Pouring pitch on the field to be lit by the dragons would have also been a great idea ala the move Wallace pulled in Braveheart. Once they were forced back into the castle walls, having unsullied 2-3 deep on the parapets could have held the dead off from taking the walls for a long time as they still only came over 1 by 1 in places where there were not enough defenders.
Once the castle walls were under attack, Jon and Dany could have signaled the dothraki and knights of the vail (who were smartly waiting with their horses several miles away) to swing around the rear and kill the walkers first and then attack the rear of the dead.
Obviously its doubtful they could have won this battle without killing the night king, but they certainly could have given themselves a much better chance to hold them off until the night king could be engaged and not lose 98% of their force in the process.
why not just make it like Hardhome.... during the day so everyone can see
Totally agree the battle plan sucked, but the writers backed production into a corner when they decided the dead were going to be more of the "World War Z" speedy as **** variety as opposed to the "Walking Dead" amblers. From all the reading and such about this season, it sounds like production had sold HBO on making "the largest ever battle" and having all the forces masses in front of the northern battlements was the best was to show the sheer mass of humanity. Having it at night allows the effects guys to get away with more on the larger shots.
I have definitely been in the "let's get on with it" camp and did my fair share of moaning about the 1st two episodes, but now with only 3 more to go, I am now trying to hang on to these characters for as long as i can.
Shit is about to get real. Anxious to see where it takes us!
Agree on them using the darkness to their advantage on production. They did an incredible job with it. The production was so good it offset the "wtfs" on the strategy. I really enjoyed the episode and it sucks there are only 3 left.
On the production vs battle strategy, I think they could have still had the forces arrayed for effect, just behind the trenches. Also, you make a good point about the dead. In past episodes, they were not a WWZ horde as they were in this episode. They were much more like ambling zombies from the walking dead. The palisade at Hard Home held them off for a good while. The horde in the past episode would have been up and over that wooden palisade in 10 seconds or less. Turning them into a horde that could move faster than a human being with dozens of dead stacked on top of each other was a mistake, imo. The were formidable enough due to their numbers. No need to turn them into what amounted to a pyroclastic flow at times.
Imagine how cool it would have been if right at the moment it appeared the walls were going to be overrun, Dany led the dothraki on a charge on her dragon into the rear of the dead and killed all the walkers? Damn I hate playing what ifs like that since the episode was still really good despite the poor strategy.
Collider had a good article that paints most of my displeasure at the episode and series post GRRM
‘Game of Thrones’: How Ignoring the Fantasy Lore Is Ruining the Show
First comes the obligatory disclaimer: Game of Thrones is an event series, it’s incredibly fun to watch, and the horror and tension that director Miguel Sapochnik was able to leverage in Season 8’s third episode, “The Long Night,” was absolutely outstanding. But there was one element of this epic, long-awaited battle episode written by Dan Weiss and David Benioff that felt half-baked, because the HBO series has never fully leaned in to the lore of George R.R. Martin’s A Song of Ice and Fire.
What makes Game of Thrones fundamentally different from a historical reimagining of the War of the Roses is magic. Dragons and ice zombies — the latter of which were introduced in the very first scene in the show and inGeorge R. R. Martin’s books — caught people’s attention. This is a fantasy series after all, a high fantasy series where magic plays a key role in understanding the world. I’ve written before about how the series started downplaying the role of magic in Westeros and beyond with its sidelining of the direwolves, but there are many other key examples. In the books, the resurrection magic that brought Jon Snow back tied into a much more in-depth exploration of the religion of R’hllor, the Lord of Light—a prominent deity for the people of Essos. Fire magic from the east has been key to the story from the beginning, like how it jump-started the dragon eggs into hatching for Dany. And now, it has played a key role in the Battle of Winterfell.
Image via HBO
So why is R’hllor so personally involved in the Battle of Winterfell? That’s never made clear. As far as Beric Dondarrion’s role in “The Long Night,” Melisandre casually says to Arya that The Lord of Light kept Beric around for his own purposes, which were fulfilled when he saved Arya (who would go on to slay the Night King). But it was also a reminder of why book readers have long-lamented the excising of Lady Stoneheart from the series (Stoneheart is actually Catelyn Stark, quasi-resurrected after the Red Wedding by the same Lord of Light magic used by Beric Dondarrion). Her eventually returning to Winterfell to help her family makes more narrative sense than for him to be there at any point. The writers try to cover this swap in “The Long Night” with the conversation between Melisandre and Arya, and yet, there was absolutely no explanation of why Melisandre was there beyond her cryptic comment to Varys in Season 7 that they would both “destined to die in Westeros” (vague though that was). Also, Beric’s final death was never really in question, because Thoros (the one who could and had resurrected him in the past) was long dead. So why, specifically, is R’hllor invested in the fight against the Night King? In only occasionally helpful ways, mind you — lighting the Dothraki swords was cool visually, but ultimately meant nothing. And why did Melisandre’s prayer to light the trenches take so long to work other than dramatic tension?
The Night King was also short-changed in his own mythology, like the decision to not have dragon fire affect him, or the fact that his generals were always completely useless. Bran hypothesizes in the previous episode that the Night King wants to destroy the history of man, but we don’t really get a sense of why that is or what the ultimate ambition is here. The rules for the Night King are different than the wights, but the show began establishing the hive-mind movements of the pack last season to prepare us for the old “kill the leader and the others will die” trope. And that might have been ok, except that everyone would have definitely died if Melisandre hadn’t shown up as a Deus ex machina to light some fires, give a pep talk, and ultimately die because … she was connected to defeating the Night King? How? Why?
Image via HBO
Is it impossible to enjoy Game of Thronesbecause of these narrative plot holes? Of course not, but it is why parts of “The Long Night” felt so hollow. The entire series has been building to this moment; again, the White Walkers introduced us to the show to begin with, they have always been heralded as the ultimate battle, and we literally watched the Night King resurrect a dragon and use it to blow down an 8,000-year-old magical wall to cap off Season 7 — probably the most magic-infused moment of the entire series. So it’s not that those fantasy elements have been ignored completely, but unfortunately, they’re only routinely trotted out for spectacle without sufficient narrative build-up.
‘Game of Thrones’: How Ignoring the Fantasy Lore Is Ruining the Show
- By Allison Keene
- 11 hours ago
First comes the obligatory disclaimer: Game of Thrones is an event series, it’s incredibly fun to watch, and the horror and tension that director Miguel Sapochnik was able to leverage in Season 8’s third episode, “The Long Night,” was absolutely outstanding. But there was one element of this epic, long-awaited battle episode written by Dan Weiss and David Benioff that felt half-baked, because the HBO series has never fully leaned in to the lore of George R.R. Martin’s A Song of Ice and Fire.
What makes Game of Thrones fundamentally different from a historical reimagining of the War of the Roses is magic. Dragons and ice zombies — the latter of which were introduced in the very first scene in the show and inGeorge R. R. Martin’s books — caught people’s attention. This is a fantasy series after all, a high fantasy series where magic plays a key role in understanding the world. I’ve written before about how the series started downplaying the role of magic in Westeros and beyond with its sidelining of the direwolves, but there are many other key examples. In the books, the resurrection magic that brought Jon Snow back tied into a much more in-depth exploration of the religion of R’hllor, the Lord of Light—a prominent deity for the people of Essos. Fire magic from the east has been key to the story from the beginning, like how it jump-started the dragon eggs into hatching for Dany. And now, it has played a key role in the Battle of Winterfell.
Image via HBO
So why is R’hllor so personally involved in the Battle of Winterfell? That’s never made clear. As far as Beric Dondarrion’s role in “The Long Night,” Melisandre casually says to Arya that The Lord of Light kept Beric around for his own purposes, which were fulfilled when he saved Arya (who would go on to slay the Night King). But it was also a reminder of why book readers have long-lamented the excising of Lady Stoneheart from the series (Stoneheart is actually Catelyn Stark, quasi-resurrected after the Red Wedding by the same Lord of Light magic used by Beric Dondarrion). Her eventually returning to Winterfell to help her family makes more narrative sense than for him to be there at any point. The writers try to cover this swap in “The Long Night” with the conversation between Melisandre and Arya, and yet, there was absolutely no explanation of why Melisandre was there beyond her cryptic comment to Varys in Season 7 that they would both “destined to die in Westeros” (vague though that was). Also, Beric’s final death was never really in question, because Thoros (the one who could and had resurrected him in the past) was long dead. So why, specifically, is R’hllor invested in the fight against the Night King? In only occasionally helpful ways, mind you — lighting the Dothraki swords was cool visually, but ultimately meant nothing. And why did Melisandre’s prayer to light the trenches take so long to work other than dramatic tension?
The Night King was also short-changed in his own mythology, like the decision to not have dragon fire affect him, or the fact that his generals were always completely useless. Bran hypothesizes in the previous episode that the Night King wants to destroy the history of man, but we don’t really get a sense of why that is or what the ultimate ambition is here. The rules for the Night King are different than the wights, but the show began establishing the hive-mind movements of the pack last season to prepare us for the old “kill the leader and the others will die” trope. And that might have been ok, except that everyone would have definitely died if Melisandre hadn’t shown up as a Deus ex machina to light some fires, give a pep talk, and ultimately die because … she was connected to defeating the Night King? How? Why?
Image via HBO
Is it impossible to enjoy Game of Thronesbecause of these narrative plot holes? Of course not, but it is why parts of “The Long Night” felt so hollow. The entire series has been building to this moment; again, the White Walkers introduced us to the show to begin with, they have always been heralded as the ultimate battle, and we literally watched the Night King resurrect a dragon and use it to blow down an 8,000-year-old magical wall to cap off Season 7 — probably the most magic-infused moment of the entire series. So it’s not that those fantasy elements have been ignored completely, but unfortunately, they’re only routinely trotted out for spectacle without sufficient narrative build-up.
Part Deux
If the battle between the Night King and R’hllor is the real song of ice and fire, Game of Thronesdid nothing to set up those stakes or even explain a background for it. The only thing it did specifically mention was that Bran was being hunted by the Night King, and that was a confrontation that could not be avoided. And yet, it mostly was. Bran, as a Stark, could naturally warg (something that is usually ignored), and as the Three-Eyed Raven he has access to the weirwood network of knowledge. So what did he do during the pivotal battle? He hopped into some ravens and flew around until the Night King showed up. Now, there was a moment when the Night King seemed to give Bran a look of recognition or hesitation, which could still fuel theories that this connection is meaningful in some way. But given how the show has treated these mystical connections in the past, we’re probably just reading into it. There was never a moment when the Night King made clear his intentions for Bran beyond death, which he could have accomplished far more easily than wielding the sword himself. So why did he do that? Did he need to? If so, why?
Even Arya’s journey throughout “The Long Night” was one where the writers wanted to have their cake and eat it, too. Arya going to Braavos and training at the House of Black and White is a distressing storyline; in the end she becomes No One. She is a faceless killer. It’s upsetting! And that’s something that Game of Thrones has shied away from as it’s left the source material. To make it all less upsetting, Arya never really became No One. She reverted back to Arya Stark of Winterfell — although with badass fighting skills gleaned from the time in Braavos. Is that more emotionally satisfying? Absolutely! But if Syrio Forel and Melisandre are both tied in with the religion of Essos, Mel returning to Winterfell and giving Arya that key pep talk feels like a connection that was again lost in Braavosi lore that was never fully explored.
It’s also one of the reasons that the final scene in the episode, with Melisandre taking off her fire stone necklace and turning back into the crone to die, ultimately fell flat. We never knew what her role in this battle or what her connection with the Night King was, or how Bran fits into all of this (for instance, Bran and Mel never interacted). In the time we knew her in this story, Melisandre was following those she thought might be “The Prince That Was Promised,” a savior who will be the reincarnated hero Azor Ahai. As she tells Daenerys in Season 7: “The Long Night is coming. Only the prince/cess who was promised can bring the dawn … I believe you have a role to play, as does another — the King in the North, Jon Snow.” And yet, without Melisandre, it wouldn’t have come to pass at all. On the flip side, she had previously erroneously believed it was Stannis Baratheon who could be this prince, and in the end, it was Arya who seems to have fulfilled this prophesy. Does that mean anything? Did it ever?
That fall of the Wall now feels metaphorical in terms of the show’s feelings about the magic in this land. Does magic matter? Are prophesies important? They are if you are telling a fantasy story, one that doesn’t sideline all of its magical elements (don’t get me started on the Children of the Forest, green-seers, and other supernatural events lost to time in the series). That raises an important question for the end of Game of Thrones. If it all comes down to the politics of who sits on the Iron Throne, then the show is abandoning one of the key elements that made Game of Thrones special: the fantasy.
There are many series that do a magnificent job of focusing in on power dynamics and shifting alliances and relationships and surprising, heartbreaking deaths, all while investigating the human stories among big, world-moving events. There aren’t many fantasy series that became cultural juggernauts of nerdom, creating fervent theorists who dive into the lore and lurk on message boards and live-tweet the excitement of its reveals and connections. What Game of Thrones initially unlocked, especially for those who maybe didn’t know they even liked fantasy, was exploring and enjoying the possibilities of a world where anything ispossible. Take that away, and you lose the magic; all you’re left with then is a cold, prickly throne.
If the battle between the Night King and R’hllor is the real song of ice and fire, Game of Thronesdid nothing to set up those stakes or even explain a background for it. The only thing it did specifically mention was that Bran was being hunted by the Night King, and that was a confrontation that could not be avoided. And yet, it mostly was. Bran, as a Stark, could naturally warg (something that is usually ignored), and as the Three-Eyed Raven he has access to the weirwood network of knowledge. So what did he do during the pivotal battle? He hopped into some ravens and flew around until the Night King showed up. Now, there was a moment when the Night King seemed to give Bran a look of recognition or hesitation, which could still fuel theories that this connection is meaningful in some way. But given how the show has treated these mystical connections in the past, we’re probably just reading into it. There was never a moment when the Night King made clear his intentions for Bran beyond death, which he could have accomplished far more easily than wielding the sword himself. So why did he do that? Did he need to? If so, why?
Even Arya’s journey throughout “The Long Night” was one where the writers wanted to have their cake and eat it, too. Arya going to Braavos and training at the House of Black and White is a distressing storyline; in the end she becomes No One. She is a faceless killer. It’s upsetting! And that’s something that Game of Thrones has shied away from as it’s left the source material. To make it all less upsetting, Arya never really became No One. She reverted back to Arya Stark of Winterfell — although with badass fighting skills gleaned from the time in Braavos. Is that more emotionally satisfying? Absolutely! But if Syrio Forel and Melisandre are both tied in with the religion of Essos, Mel returning to Winterfell and giving Arya that key pep talk feels like a connection that was again lost in Braavosi lore that was never fully explored.
It’s also one of the reasons that the final scene in the episode, with Melisandre taking off her fire stone necklace and turning back into the crone to die, ultimately fell flat. We never knew what her role in this battle or what her connection with the Night King was, or how Bran fits into all of this (for instance, Bran and Mel never interacted). In the time we knew her in this story, Melisandre was following those she thought might be “The Prince That Was Promised,” a savior who will be the reincarnated hero Azor Ahai. As she tells Daenerys in Season 7: “The Long Night is coming. Only the prince/cess who was promised can bring the dawn … I believe you have a role to play, as does another — the King in the North, Jon Snow.” And yet, without Melisandre, it wouldn’t have come to pass at all. On the flip side, she had previously erroneously believed it was Stannis Baratheon who could be this prince, and in the end, it was Arya who seems to have fulfilled this prophesy. Does that mean anything? Did it ever?
That fall of the Wall now feels metaphorical in terms of the show’s feelings about the magic in this land. Does magic matter? Are prophesies important? They are if you are telling a fantasy story, one that doesn’t sideline all of its magical elements (don’t get me started on the Children of the Forest, green-seers, and other supernatural events lost to time in the series). That raises an important question for the end of Game of Thrones. If it all comes down to the politics of who sits on the Iron Throne, then the show is abandoning one of the key elements that made Game of Thrones special: the fantasy.
There are many series that do a magnificent job of focusing in on power dynamics and shifting alliances and relationships and surprising, heartbreaking deaths, all while investigating the human stories among big, world-moving events. There aren’t many fantasy series that became cultural juggernauts of nerdom, creating fervent theorists who dive into the lore and lurk on message boards and live-tweet the excitement of its reveals and connections. What Game of Thrones initially unlocked, especially for those who maybe didn’t know they even liked fantasy, was exploring and enjoying the possibilities of a world where anything ispossible. Take that away, and you lose the magic; all you’re left with then is a cold, prickly throne.
A buddy of mine gave me + money odds that Grey Worm lives so I took it as a contrarian play. I swear to god the showed Grey Worm get his throat slit near the beginning of the battle. Was pretty relieved when he showed back up.
Jon and Danny are cool with the whole incest thing. It’s just a matter of who’s in charge that bothers them
Those weird close ups of Danny’s face at the end will make good gifs.
Feel like Varys is finally on his way in getting his hand stuck in the cookie jar. They separated Jon and Danny so one of them is gonna get F’d soon. The scene with Bronn was just a total waste of time. Jaimie needs to confront Cersei one last time so I’m happy with him going back.
Feel like Varys is finally on his way in getting his hand stuck in the cookie jar. They separated Jon and Danny so one of them is gonna get F’d soon. The scene with Bronn was just a total waste of time. Jaimie needs to confront Cersei one last time so I’m happy with him going back.
seriously, why didn't she just fly around to the rear and burn the fugg'n ships...smh
Didn't mind the Bronn stuff, think the Brienne "drunk face will be used even more than the Dani "I'm so mad right now" face. Starting to wonder if Grey Worm will take down the Mountain, hope we aren't robbed of Clegane Bowl.
Damn that dragon got blasted. I still wouldn’t say a real big character has died this season. Missandei hot little piece for sure but thought a real player would have been offed by now.
Wouldn’t be shocked if the Mountain kills Grey Work too.
The scene with Bronn was like 2 minutes though. I just hate the way Bronn has been used for awhile now. Fun character and he's reduced to just going back and forth for better deals and not doing anything of note lately. Is he gonna pull a trigger or is he really just gonna be sitting on the sidelines now and wait to collect his bounty?
If we didn't know that the show was ending, last night would have been epic. It feels like not enough happened sheerly because we know how many episodes are remaining. Jon told his sisters who he is. Jon and Danny argue over how to handle that and how to make their relationship work. Dany's advisors are wondering if they should bolt from her to support Jon. Jamie finally hooked up with The Tall Woman. Tormund got beat out by the one handed man. Gendry became a lord, proposed to Arya and got turned down because she's not gonna be anyones "lady". Sansa spilled a secret instantly, leading to Varys and Tyrion having some serious decisions to make. A dragon died!!!! Cersei has turned one big crossbow idea into a development that might mean more from a military standpoint than 3 dragons would. They beheaded Dany's best friend in front of her face.
That's actually a TON of stuff in one episode. If that happened 2 seasons ago we'd all be running around like our pets heads were falling off.
I thought it was a better episode than s08e03. It moved the story forward very quickly.
HOWEVER, like @Boytano said, why not just make a huge 180 out of the reach of the giant bolts (front mounted only afaik) and destroy the Iron Fleet in one fail swoop? That seems like a huge tactical error on her part, she still had the advantage.
HOWEVER, like @Boytano said, why not just make a huge 180 out of the reach of the giant bolts (front mounted only afaik) and destroy the Iron Fleet in one fail swoop? That seems like a huge tactical error on her part, she still had the advantage.
My only issue with the scorpions is they were reloading at an almost automatic speed.
So originally I thought that we were getting setup for a situation where it looks like Danerys is going to become queen but then it ends up being Jon. Now I think it is the opposite. I think Jon dies and Dany becomes queen, though it will look like the opposite is going to happen. Can't have a cis white male ending up on the throne.
I was pretty shocked how they kilt the dragon. Just had a warm moment where he was beginning to cope with his battle injuries and then gets smoked by a bolt. When that one went through his neck to finish him off I was like oh shit!
I agree with jeramye, it was really a great episode but with end so near it's hard to accept it.
I agree with jeramye, it was really a great episode but with end so near it's hard to accept it.
Yeah, in retrospect I should have seen the setup coming. Too "feel good" and they had Dany getting a moment with him before takeoff. But when that first bolt got him I shot up out of my seat a bit. Did not expect that out of nowhere.
I feel like 90% of the complaints, including my own, are a result simply of knowing the series is ending. Otherwise the season would be pretty badass so far. You ruin things when you tell people they are ending I guess.
We even got to see Westeros first Starbucks cup in the episode.
I was very unimpressed with the Kingslayers bod. Guy looked more like Scar than Mufasa.
I think a lot of it is just a lack of character consistency that bothers me, and that includes the dragons. It’s like, when they need the dragons to be super badass unstoppable forces, then they show them as such. But then when the narrative requires one to go down, it just happens with a whimper just because they wanted to keep the story moving. Like I don’t mind the dragon dying, but getting pretty easily sniped and destroyed by a weapon that was already proven to be not that lethal against them was pretty weak. I think it deserved something a bit more creative.
Same with Arya. She’s almost established to be too powerful that when they decide not to use her in any planning in the next battle that it makes no sense. It’s like, Bitch killed the whole Frey family and now killed the Night King. Maybe consider asking her to do some assasin shit in Kings landing. It’d be way cooler if her skills were actually used as part of a plan instead of just Charlie style wild card baby
