Best teams are in the West, but these 2nd round series are gonna be sweeps or basically sweeps. The East Series are gonna go 6 or 7.
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Best teams are in the West, but these 2nd round series are gonna be sweeps or basically sweeps. The East Series are gonna go 6 or 7.
We can poll it and I'd bet it's split. I'd still vote MJ, I just said I'm open to the idea of Lebron moving past him now and I used to be of the mind that would never happen.
Steph is an interesting one. He's obviously an unbelievable player, but I can't put him in the league of Lebron or Jordan when he misses this much time. Remember that one of the only reasons GSW was able to assemble what they assembled was that they got Curry on a long contract at a big discount because he couldn't stay on the court for a couple of season prior to that. They probably lost the Finals they lost to Lebron because he wasn't healthy and they've had to run without him significant amounts this year. Jordan rarely missed time and Lebron is a freaking tank that plays absurd minutes and has very little injury history for his usage rate. That matters when comparing legends.
The worst thing for Steph’s legacy was for Durant to join the warriors. Impossible to be in any goat or mvp conversations anymore when you’re not even the best player on his team anymore
Not gonna lie, it impacts my opinion of both. That may fade over time like it did with Lebron joining Wade/Bosh, but right now I can't get over the fact that a team that set the record for regular season wins (a record many thought wouldn't be touched because it was so absurd) added on of the top 5 players in the league and lost nothing. It makes me likely to slide Steph and KD lower than maybe they should be.
In 15 years LeBron will be the consensus goat and it won't be close at all. By the end of his career he will have blown every single Jordan Stat out of the water. The only only caveat may be that he won't win 6 rings, but I think he still can. Jordan wasn't trying to hard carry a team like Cleveland his whole career either. LeBron will move to a good team this off season and they will smash for 3 or 4 years.
Lebron. If he quit today would already be the goat. I mean Derrick fisher has 5 rings because he played on really good teams. Jordan is the same to me. Jordan had great individual games/series, but LeBron is a different animal. You won't see Jordan lovers bring up stats in threads like these because LeBron is far far far superior in that category.
Lebron. If he quit today would already be the goat. I mean Derrick fisher has 5 rings because he played on really good teams. Jordan is the same to me. Jordan had great individual games/series, but LeBron is a different animal. You won't see Jordan lovers bring up stats in threads like these because LeBron is far far far superior in that category.
Lebron is going to win more stat battles than MJ. Part of that is that he has had to carry teams more than MJ did. MJ had more teams that were complete so he could focus on scoring and not having to get as many rebounds or assists where Lebron has had quite a few teams where he literally had to carry the load on everything.
MJ stats he's going to win include PPG (during a time where defense was not basically illegal due to rules like it has been in the last decade so it makes it more impressive), career steals avg and that Finals record is always going to be mentioned. 3-5 is always going to be compared to 6-0. Though you can argue that getting there with the teams Lebron has gotten there with speaks to his absurdness. That's a better argument that that Derek Fisher path you are going down.
Oh, just typical shit like being the GOAT shooter, being a Top 5 ball handler in the league, creating floor space at an unprecedented level, seeing the floor at an historic level, insane basketball IQ, setting up teammates, being able to finish at the rim despite diminutive size, etc.
But I digress.
I don’t think he’s a top 5 ball handler in the league nor does he “see the floor at an historic level.” Not sure where you get that. Plus, he’s not “diminutive” for a PG. Guys like Wsestbrook are the same height but just way more explosive and athletic
He’s led the league in points generated off pick-and-rolls and has been #1 or #2 in the league in “secondary assists” (passes that lead to a layup) the last few years.
That’s where I got that.
He’s basically Steve Nash with a much better shot. That’s terrifying.
His MVP season of 2016, his player-efficiency rating was markedly better than Jordan’s during the Bulls’ 72-win season.
There is literally not a more completely skilled guy in the league by a pretty wide margin, and the overlooking he gets here is bordering on criminal.
Lebron has played twice as many games as steph and played as 3 or 4 (while steph is a PG) and Bron averages more assists per game with the same turnover ratio. I’m not even gonna look up top point guards. But in no way is Steph a top ball handler. I no way does he see the floor at a historic level. And in no way is he “diminutive.” He’s a great shooter. And if he saw the floor better, and if was a better distributor, then he’d have a ton more assists considering he creates so much space and plays for the best shooting team of all time. He’s a great player but he’s way closer to a one trick pony than he is to a “goat.” Harden is a way better player than Steph imo
Yeah, based on this post we’re just gonna agree to disagree... even though you’re incredibly wrong.
Again, are we only going to live in a bubble where Steph is healthy or are we having this discussion in the reality where he's the most injury prone guy mentioned in this thread?
Cause if we're doing a draft where we get to reshape the league tomorrow I'm putting guys ahead of Steph because he's 30 and had 5 All Star caliber seasons and keeps getting banged up and I'm not sure how often he's going to be able to be at his best to help me. And that's part of being an all time great. Doesn't mean he's not on the list for me, but it means he's further down it due to availability.
I love you buddy. You seem like a great dude. But Derrick Fisher comparisons to Jordan? Stop. You're smarter than that. Because that isn't very intelligent.
I'll also say this- folks, stop getting so wrapped up in statistics. They very rarely tell the whole story. What were the existing conditions when those stats were amassed? Don't be lazy and just look at box scores and records. LeBron is one of the greats. But to say he is the greatest is subjective. It's all opinion. Because there is no definitive criterion for that stuff. There is NO GOAT. The whole concept is silly, when you think about it. Google Bill Russel. Could I postulate that he is the GOAT? Yep. He has as much claim on that as LeBron. Or Wilt. Or the next guy to make it big. So stop. We do these older guys a great injustice.
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the fisher argument is just to highlight that any good player can get a large number of rings with the right cast, lebron has had the "right cast" only a few times and he's won all of those. MJ would never carry the teams lebron has to the finals, because he wasn't good enough to do that, which is why lebron is better, objectively. It's not even close.
I don’t consider “most skilled” to be a metric contingent on health status.
MJ never had to be carried to a title like Lebron did with Kyrie, D Wade and Ray Allen. He was the best player on the floor everytime it mattered. Lebron not so much.
Lebron just had his best playoff series ever though so people overreacting. I mean he’s top 2 all time that’s still good.
Lebron just had his best playoff series ever though so people overreacting. I mean he’s top 2 all time that’s still good.
Exactly. Look at that Dream Team footage. Jordan is dominating among the greatest collection of players ever.
that old dream team would get spanked by a modern day dream team. And I don't even think it'd be that close
1 - the best argument anyone will ever have for Lebron over Jordan is longevity... he’s going to end up with a “prime” longer than Jordan’s entire career - and he never had to “step away” in the middle of it, for whatever reason
2 - if the argument is 20+ years of Lebron vs 13 years of Jordan, it’s a valid argument... if the argument is peak Lebron vs peak Jordan, there is no argument
3 - Steph is the single most impactful offensive player in the history of the sport, and the single greatest offensive weapon in the history of the sport... he’s not the best player, or a top “x” player... but his impact and what he does to a defense and the geometry of the court is more impactful than anything in the history of the sport... the only real comparison is Wilt, but Steph’s gravity stretches the floor where Wilt’s shrunk it, so considering the increased skill level across the board I have to believe Steph’s has a greater cumulative affect
2 - if the argument is 20+ years of Lebron vs 13 years of Jordan, it’s a valid argument... if the argument is peak Lebron vs peak Jordan, there is no argument
3 - Steph is the single most impactful offensive player in the history of the sport, and the single greatest offensive weapon in the history of the sport... he’s not the best player, or a top “x” player... but his impact and what he does to a defense and the geometry of the court is more impactful than anything in the history of the sport... the only real comparison is Wilt, but Steph’s gravity stretches the floor where Wilt’s shrunk it, so considering the increased skill level across the board I have to believe Steph’s has a greater cumulative affect
I think Jordan probably is better than Lebron, but the way that Jordan is talked about is like the guy never did any wrong. Probably my biggest beef with the whole arguments. Why did Jordan lose in the first round 3 times if he has such a killer instinct? Never seen a player that is remembered for making zero mistakes like he is
Time does that to legends. I 100% agree with you. I have my opinion on everything just like everyone else but I just don't care about trying to get other people to see it the way I do. Just don't matter to me.
As an aside: Where the fvck is @ThrustMaxwell ?
Yeah but he basically closed his career with 6 straight titles. The East hasn't exactly been stout during most of Lebron's career. I mean he's a stud but having a great series and making a buzzer beater in rd 1 to hold off the Pacers doesn't really move the needle when talking about the GOAT imo.
Those Jazz teams were okay but none of Jordan’s finals opponents were anything close to the Warriors or the Spurs teams that Bron took down. Nor were the Knicks that Jordan faced as good as the Celtics squad that Bron faces either. People wax lyrical about the past, but there’s no way Jordan would win six straight in today’s league
I don't think Jordan would have lost any with that Heat team. Not the Mavericks at least. The Warriors are on another level for sure especially with KD.
People romanticize about how good the Bulls supporting cast was too but it was basically trash besides Pippen.
If I recall at the time people thought those Lakers, Trailblazers, and SuperSonics teams were good. Also that Suns teams wasn’t bad. KJ, Chuck, Marjale (sp)
Bruh The Worm was likely the best rebounder/post defender of my lifetime. I’m struggling to think of anyone near his level.
Yeah I guess he’s in the HOF so can’t really call him a scrub. I don’t know prolific rebounder/ defender but infinitely terrible offensive player.
I also think him losing early rounds early in his career is something that is normal and not a negative. Jordan fans would argue those loses developed his killer instinct and I'd say Lebron's shortcomings early in his career developed his mentality of being able to shoulder this load the way he does now.
I think we'll forget about Lebron's fist Cavs stint where he legitimately seemed to struggle at times in critical moments. We will look back on that as him learning how to be the player he became and how to handle those moments. Except for the few haters who just can't give him credit I guess.
“Those Jazz squads” only had 2 HOFers, 3 NBA All-Stars, the NBA all-time leader in both assists and steals (by a large margin) at PG (Stockton) and the #2 all-time leading scorer at PF (Mailman).
The pick-and-roll combo of Stockton, Malone and Hornacek was incredibly deadly and then you have Ostertag down low protecting the rim.
They certainly weren’t slouches.
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